Curse

Order Of Thy Sword · Nov 12, 2005, 02:38 PM // 14:38

I am a very loyal GW player, I own 2 accounts and have been playing nearly since the release date. I feel as if I have a very good knowledge of the marketplace.

In the past few weeks I hae noticed a infulx of players whom seem to be very well organized into a gold gathering/weapons selling ring.

These players NEVER log out, have multiple copys of perfect weapons with perfect requirements, and forcibly trade with you but running up unsolicited and trying to open a trade, if you accept, instantly filling all 7 slots with perfect un-id'd gold weapons.

How is it that Arenanet can say they have zero tolerance for botters/those selling gold/items for real world profit, when these same people sit all day long in all the major trade districts spamming thier goods so constantly, that nobody from North American can efficently sell thier goods. How is that fair.

Why is it so hard to put a admin in Lions arch 1 for 1 hour a day just to observe the unfairness of what is happening. It is truley sickening.

I believe the latest update was to deter these people and thier practices, however what has ended up happening is the opposite. Now more then ever is Lions arch 1 controlled by this ring of people.

Why are people allowed to play in other countrys servers? Besides PvP I see no logical reason for this.

I would really like to see AN take action against these EULA breaking players.

D.E.V.i.A.N.C.E · Nov 12, 2005, 02:44 PM // 14:44

You ever see .hack// the prequal? I forget its name but 3 college students play'd a game in there free time (only 1 charr)

could be 3 people in that place; anyhow i know some asain "people" on the game have trading friends; they swap around items and take turns selling them and split the profits.

or hell could even be sweatshops; theres no rule against sweatshop type places that play the game; its a "human interface"

Order Of Thy Sword · Nov 12, 2005, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by D.E.V.i.A.N.C.E

You ever see .hack// the prequal? I forget its name but 3 college students play'd a game in there free time (only 1 charr)

could be 3 people in that place; anyhow i know some asain "people" on the game have trading friends; they swap around items and take turns selling them and split the profits.

or hell could even be sweatshops; theres no rule against sweatshop type places that play the game; its a "human interface"

funny I saw you defending botters in another thread, dude if it looks like a duck quacks like a duck and swims like a duck, its a duck.

jonnybegood · Nov 12, 2005, 02:53 PM // 14:53

lol one day my friend spent like 300k on those un'id weopens, and he gave the useless stuff to me! but he still got crap

Tactical-Dillusions · Nov 12, 2005, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonnybegood

lol one day my friend spent like 300k on those un'id weopens, and he gave the useless stuff to me! but he still got crap

They "equip" the good stuff to I.D. them before actually identifying them. They won't sell a max gold uni'd flamberge for 5k if it gave them a 30hp bonus while equipped...this way the majority of stuff they sell uni'd is useless and the best stuff which they id'd, they sell on infamous websites etc for a healthy real-world profit.

It's a form of scamming but in a diluted form. Don't buy these unid'd weapons from what looks like a mass production line. Hou shin wang chow mein has already took the good stuff out.
It's like coin sellers who sell "uncleaned/unidentified" roman coins...they already scanned a detector over them to pick out the silver/gold. You will get bronze.

Order Of Thy Sword · Nov 12, 2005, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tactical-Dillusions

They "equip" the good stuff to I.D. them before actually identifying them. They won't sell a max gold uni'd flamberge for 5k if it gave them a 30hp bonus while equipped...this way the majority of stuff they sell uni'd is useless and the best stuff which they id'd, they sell on infamous websites etc for a healthy real-world profit.

It's a form of scamming but in a diluted form. Don't buy these unid'd weapons from what looks like a mass production line. Hou shin wang chow mein has already took the good stuff out.
It's like coin sellers who sell "uncleaned/unidentified" roman coins...they already scanned a detector over them to pick out the silver/gold. You will get bronze.

BINGO, thanks for saying what I forgot to add to my posts.

The Unknown Enemy · Nov 12, 2005, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Order Of Thy Sword

I believe the latest update was to deter these people and thier practices, however what has ended up happening is the opposite. Now more then ever is Lions arch 1 controlled by this ring of people.

Well you have to think, the people selling the items see an advantage here. The regular users might be thinking that they need to hurry up and get items before all of them go away, and the people selling them here can use the beloved supply-and-demand

D.E.V.i.A.N.C.E · Nov 12, 2005, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Order Of Thy Sword

funny I saw you defending botters in another thread, dude if it looks like a duck quacks like a duck and swims like a duck, its a duck.

If Anet detected scripts(bots) being used they would have banned the account; there constantly watching; all you say is THERE BOTS; THEY DONT TALK SO MUST BE BOT KTHNX.

Now stop blaming things that aren't true on the flux of the economy...

Gwenhywar · Nov 12, 2005, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Noone is forcing you to be stupid and buy UNid gold weapons. Or to accept trades from people who randomly open them with you.

I appreciate these sellers, however, as they are selling loads of perfect weapon upgrades for reasonable prices, thus I was able to buy any upgrades I needed for my warrior's weapons FAST and for reasonable prices.

Since I hate standing around LA for hours looking for someone to sell that one specific upgrade I need, I like the huge amount of traders selling them and most are willing to lower initial prices when they see an interested customer.

Order Of Thy Sword · Nov 12, 2005, 05:00 PM // 17:00

I think many of you are missing the points I was trying to get across.

1. Constant spam ruins it for legit players trying to sell.

2. They are a organized gold collection ring/agency.

3. They are in another countrys dist, other then the ones they are from.

You are RIGHT deviance, if anet DETECTED the bots they would be banned, but since the are undectable, does this make it right?

No Im not buying gold un-id's.

D.E.V.i.A.N.C.E · Nov 12, 2005, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Order Of Thy Sword

1. Constant spam ruins it for legit players trying to sell.

People suggest Auction house's but have yet to recive one, so spamming is all we got left. there is an ignore option in the friends list

Quote:

Originally Posted by Order Of Thy Sword

2. They are a organized gold collection ring/agency.

A Guild perhaps? maybe a clan? everyone knows of WS;FBI;NoD as a non english speaking guild that sells items. (we notice them farming)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Order Of Thy Sword

3. They are in another countrys dist, other then the ones they are from.

Doesnt matter; theres no laws or rules for being in a region that you aren't orginally from did you know of the "change region" option in your profile within guild wars?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Order Of Thy Sword

You are RIGHT deviance, if anet DETECTED the bots they would be banned, but since the are undectable, does this make it right?

please; show us proff of bots. Do they have chemical weapons of mass destruction too?

non human activities can be seen within logs.

Whosaidwhatnow · Nov 12, 2005, 05:45 PM // 17:45

See, I have no problem with these players/farmers... even if they're bots. They can have all the items and drive the prices up as high as they want... because guess who is ultimately responsible for these selling prices? The people buying them.

What's the difference between 14% dmg > 50 hp and 15% dmg > 50 hp?

Very little. Why the difference in price? Its for looks, plain and simple. It's so you can put it in a trade window and show your friends a perfect weapon. You can go to Wal-Mart and buy discounted clothes for 5-10 bucks or you can go to the Nike store and spend 50 bucks on a sweatshop T-shirt. Why? Because of the swoosh.

Since the game is so balanced, people save up 100k for a sup absorb rune just because there's nothing else to spend it on, you might as well "max" your characters. Does it give them much of an advantage? No, hardly any advantage at all.

I like the economy the way it was (as of Nov 9), I think it should take you a month of heavy playing to accumulate that 100k and buy a sup rune (its hardly any better than a major anyway), since its just for high level characters to have something to aim for. If sup absorb was 10k and every green or perfect item was 5-10k, I would have every good item in the game now, and I'd have absolutely no incentive to continue PvEing...

Making the distinction that a lot of these farmers are Asian, and saying they should be kept out of other servers is offensive and sort of silly. Ever seen the South Park episode where the Goobacks "took dere jaaaaabs"? What you're saying sounds awfully similar to that. If you can't compete with these guys, too bad. If you're working in a plant and an Asian guy does better work than you for less money, either adapt, compete, or your ass is in the street. Just because GW is a game doesn't mean they should sugarcoat it for you and make it easy for good ole Americans to have whatever they want. Botting is bad, but hey, they're spending their internet time, they're logging into GW, I really don't give a rats ass whether they're actually sitting in front of their computer or not. Solo farming really doesn't affect me, I say more power to them. They make it hard to obtain all the top level items, and I fully support this notion.

Roza · Nov 12, 2005, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Sorry for reposting a re-edited post form another thread, but perhaps this is if some interest when talking about the effects of sweat-shop farming (virgoods) on the economy.

These farm-shop product sellers are annoying (they spam trade channels, they take up your time with useless unsollicited trade offers for stuff they have already identified by equiping them). However, they affect the overal economy of the game too.

I had a discussion about whether prices of items would go up or down due to the farm nerfs. I said that prices would probably go down a little. Many disagreed, claiming that prices would sky-rocket. I think some of the changes made by Anet are designed to stop prices from rising too high. However, the pressence of sweatshop-farmers may make them go up all the same.

Quote:
To all of you thinking prices will go down, take an economics class:

1. Supply is now heavily constricted
2. Demand is the same
3. Prices will skyrocketp-|d---------v-------x-
--|-d------v--------x---
r-|---d---v--------x----
--|----dv-------x-------
i-|----v---d--x---------
--|--------x--d---------
c-|------x--------d-----
--|--x----------------d-
e-|__________________
Demand

d = demand curve
x = original supply curve
v = new supply curve

As you can see, the aggregate shift in the supply curve will cause an exponential increase in prices of items. Another problem arises with the new cutoff in the amount of gold, this weakens the average player's purchasing power while inceasing the purchasing power of the rich considerably
End of quote.

This may seem very learned, with the little graph (nicely done btw) but this is just plain wrong reasoning. The number of items in the game will be less. This would cause prices to rise if this was the only thing that would change.

But demand won't stay the same. Demand is not how many people want something, but how much they want and CAN afford to spend on something. If people have less gold in the game, prices will fall (basic economic rule). Now, people that sell stuff to each other do not affect the overal amount of gold going around in the player economy (or it does only if people tend to hoard gold and sit on it more).

Where does the gold come from? From gold drops and from selling stuff to merchants. Where does it dissappear to? Buying stuff (like keys, salvage kits, runes) from merchants, and paying for stuff like armour, entrance to the UW, and skills). If people cannot farm as well as before, they will get less gold from drops and selling stuff to the merchants. So there is less gold enetering the player economy.

Anet made buying skills a lot more expensive. Effect? Gold down. They introduced keys, which are not cheap. In return you get fairly good items. The effect? Gold down, number of items up. It seems pretty obvious to me that Anet wanted the amount of gold in players accounts not to get to get out of hand. This must have been one of the reasons why they introduced gold sinks in the first place. I can only speculate as to the reasons behind all this.

But my point is: supply down, demand down even more: deflation (lower prices). Prices will not rise. If they will, it will because of virgoods. People farming continuesly and not spending and selling most of their items to the merchants, selling their gold to other players? Some gain to the supply side of things, but a much higher boost to the amount of gold floating around in the player economy.

In fact, prices have not really risen by all that much over the last couple of months, except maybe prices for particular runes that people use for farming (the price of sup fire - now 10K - may drop now AOE is less effective for normal farming). Dye prices have dropped. Upgrade prices have stayed more or less the same, except for 'perfect' or 'near perfect' upgrades (which may have more to do with more people learning more about how to optimize their builds than anything).

Of course, a drop in both supply and demand will make people poorer in terms of the stuff they can purchase, which I think is a shame. But the argument that the update will cause prices to go up dramatically is simply not valid.

Order Of Thy Sword · Nov 12, 2005, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by D.E.V.i.A.N.C.E

People suggest Auction house's but have yet to recive one, so spamming is all we got left. there is an ignore option in the friends list

A Guild perhaps? maybe a clan? everyone knows of WS;FBI;NoD as a non english speaking guild that sells items. (we notice them farming)

Doesnt matter; theres no laws or rules for being in a region that you aren't orginally from did you know of the "change region" option in your profile within guild wars?

please; show us proff of bots. Do they have chemical weapons of mass destruction too?

non human activities can be seen within logs.

Wow maybe its just me, but it seems youre still defending botters. I find that odd.

So saddam didnt have chem weapons right? And thousands of Kurds didnt die when he gassed them?

D.E.V.i.A.N.C.E · Nov 12, 2005, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Order Of Thy Sword

Wow maybe its just me, but it seems youre still defending botters. I find that odd.

How am I supporting them? and you have proff of a botter existing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Order Of Thy Sword

So saddam didnt have chem weapons right? And thousands of Kurds didnt die when he gassed them?

WMD: United States Used Chemical Weapons on Fallujah

New evidence has emerged that the USA dropped massive amounts of white phosphorus on the city of Fallujah during attacks on the city in 2004. Since the assault rumors have swirled around that the US used chemical weapons.

In December the government denied reports calling them "widespread myths" and the USinfo website says: "Phosphorus shells are not outlawed. US forces have used them very sparingly in Fallujah, for illumination purposes."

Photographs from <link removed> says it has high quality close up photographs showing residents of Fallujah, some still in bed, whose skin has caramelised or been dissolved by the shells.

who has the WMD's now? and we aren't in court?
Is it agasint the rules to commit genocide within the country you own and run?

I would close this; he has no vailid points, and im tired of his assumtions of "I support blah blah"

Whosaidwhatnow · Nov 12, 2005, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roza

Of course, a drop in both supply and demand will make people poorer in terms of the stuff they can purchase, which I think is a shame. But the argument that the update will cause prices to go up dramatically is simply not valid.

Demand isn't going anywhere. Do you think people who were saving their money for whatever are going to say "well gee, if that flatbow is 70k instead of 55k, I'm finished.. forget it..." No. They'll just save up the extra money (which will take longer) and buy the same items at an inflated price. Demand is how bad players want something, not necessarily how much they can spend. Demand for Beanie Babies doesn't go down when the prices rise, people just pay more for them, put a second mortgage on their house if they have to, but they get it done... I'm no econ major, but since gold is still plentiful, albeit harder for certain classes to acquire, and items are less plentiful, I think prices will skyrocket. Logging in today and seeing ecto's going for 15-17k, I can safely say that they have already started.

Order Of Thy Sword · Nov 12, 2005, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by D.E.V.i.A.N.C.E

How am I supporting them? and you have proff of a botter existing?

WMD: United States Used Chemical Weapons on Fallujah

New evidence has emerged that the USA dropped massive amounts of white phosphorus on the city of Fallujah during attacks on the city in 2004. Since the assault rumors have swirled around that the US used chemical weapons.

In December the government denied reports calling them "widespread myths" and the USinfo website says: "Phosphorus shells are not outlawed. US forces have used them very sparingly in Fallujah, for illumination purposes."

Photographs from <link removed> says it has high quality close up photographs showing residents of Fallujah, some still in bed, whose skin has caramelised or been dissolved by the shells.

who has the WMD's now? and we aren't in court?
Is it agasint the rules to commit genocide within the country you own and run?

I would close this; he has no vailid points, and im tired of his assumtions of "I support blah blah"

Once again tiptoes around the facts, brings up more lies. Coming from a Military family I know for a fact that white phosphrous is NOT a WMD, you just proved what a un-informed bandwagon jumper you are.

White Phosphrous a WMD, lmfao more like common ingerdient in fireworks. Obviously another anti American poster.

"OMGWTFIGETNPWNZORD close the thread" grow up dude.

Order Of Thy Sword · Nov 12, 2005, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by D.E.V.i.A.N.C.E

Is it agasint the rules to commit genocide within the country you own and run?

YES, GENEVA CONVENTION PAL.

Roza · Nov 12, 2005, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Demand is how bad players want something, not how much they can spend. Demand for Beanie Babies doesn't go down when the prices rise, people just pay more for them, put a second mortgage on their house if they have to, but they get it done...

I think prices will skyrocket. Logging in today and seeing ecto's going for 15-17k, I can safely say that they already have.

I am sorry, but you are wrong. People in Africa may want a Mercedez Benz, and a swimming pool in the garden, but it does not mean that there is a large demand for that sort of car in economic terms. It is not people's desire for something but the currency they have to to spend on it that determines demand. That is why general demand drops in times of an economic recesion.

If Anet releases chapter 2 but somehow all the GW players are broke when the game comes out, it won't sell well, however much GW players may want to buy it.

If prices for certain items are increasing a lot on such a short notice, this probably means that people are expecting prices to go up and speculating by not selling ecto's just yet, as the supply cannot have been affected in such a short time, imho.

Whosaidwhatnow · Nov 12, 2005, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roza

I am sorry, but you are wrong. People in Africa may want a Mercedez Benz, and a swimming pool in the garden, but it does not mean that there is a large demand for that sort of car in economic terms. It is not people's desire for something but the currency they have to to spend on it that determines demand. That is why general demand drops in times of an economic recesion.

If Anet releases chapter 2 but somehow all the GW players are broke when the game comes out, it won't sell well, however much GW players may want to buy it.

If prices for certain items are increasing a lot on such a short notice, this probably means that people are expecting prices to go up and speculating by not selling ecto's just yet, as the supply cannot have been affected in such a short time, imho.

Picking an extreme example like dead-broke tribespeople in Africa is a bit much. What changed with this update? Did peoples bank accounts get wiped? Did I miss that part? Don't think so. So the money is still there, and it will keep coming in, but items will come in slower. Less items, the same amount of people that want to buy them... prices go up.

There is no demand for swimming pools in broke tribes in Africa regardless of how prices fluctuate (in any reasonable sense), but GW is hardly a broke African tribe. Farmers were affected by this update, but the people buying those items are rarely farmers. They get their money through other means, and they'll continue to do so. Farmers have less stuff, people have the same amount of money, prices go up. If you think ectos spiking in price is just due to people hoarding them, reply to this post in a week or two. If ecto's go down, you're right. Let me know how that goes.

For people that have money and aren't dead broke (dead broke people aren't consumers anyway so I don't have any idea why you brought them up except to try and juxtapose my argument in a really extreme way to make what I said seem ridiculous), all it means is they spend a larger percent of their income on the same stuff. If you have 200 bucks to spend on whatever, and you were planning to spend 20 bucks on chapter 2, but they raise it to 30 bucks, and you really want it, are you going to reconsider? Not a chance. You were going to waste that money on Dorito's and salsa (in this case, dyes or something) anyway, so why not put it to better use?

People buying items for 50-60k aren't dead broke, so your little analogy doesn't apply... the people that can already afford to pay this amount aren't going to care if prices jack up a little more... this doesn't stop high level players from buying, it just makes it even harder for new players to get anything decent.

Edit: I'm not John Rockefeller, I'm not Adam Smith, I don't have a ton of research to back me up, so I'm going to say we're at an impasse... you think you're right, I think I'm right, we're going to disagree, so be it. I'm done debating.